Red Pony Farm: A journey in motion

Heavy On The Forehand

This question wasn't asked of me. It was asked of the gang on Ridecamp at Endurance.net. I received premission to quote those involved. So here goes:

Elly Burnett:

Title: Horse training question...

This is really only marginally relevant, as in it's regarding my coming 5-year-old that I hope to use for distance riding in the future.  Anyone with any youngster experience out there?

Here's what's going on.  He's been back from the trainer's since early February, and we've been working in the arena since then.  Things have been going really well, except he wants to get really heavy on the forehand as soon as I pick up any contact on the bit.  He's not terribly rude about it, although he's getting a bit ruder as time progresses.  I know the trainer worked him primarily in a bosal-type bridle, but I know she did do some with a snaffle (which is what we're using now).  I tried riding him in just his halter, which helped a little, but he still wanted to carry his head too low for my comfort.  When I give up all contact on the bit, he would be happy near "peanut rolling" with his nose.  As he's young and has a tendency to spook, I like to be ready to one-rein stop him, and this just isn't working.  Anyways, a friend suggested I "pop" him with a rein as soon as he gets heavy, but I'm spending way too much time jerking on the reins, and the whole ordeal makes me uncomfortable.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Elly

Nancy Sturm:

Sometimes a youngster will become heavy on the forehand because he isn't using his rear effectively. It's hard to know for sure how far along your horse is in his training, but usually they will come off the forehand if you drive them forward and get them to engage the hindquarters.

Nancy

DORY JACKSON:

  I would call your trainer and see what he/she was doing with your horse and see what they would do, so you take the next step that they would have taken had the horse stayed in training. Getting on the forehand is natural for a young horse just under saddle, you(r) job is to teach the horse to come off the bridle. Your trainer should be able to help you with your problem.  Balance is the key, and learning to balance is the key to collection. It takes time and work, both on your part and your horse...as the saying goes your horse will only be as good as the rider that is riding it. Dory

Dory Jackson

(training, Endurance and Show horses)
Bre-J-D Arabians & Sport Horses

Barbara McCrary:

(added note from Barbara: I certainly don't consider myself an expert on 

endurance horse training.  I  . . . quote from my experiences over the years.)

I've brought along several youngsters over the years and the main reason for heavy-on-the-forehand is lack of hindquarter muscle. Do lots of slow hill-climbing until his back end muscles up. One horse I rode for a year before my husband made him into HIS endurance horse (a good one, too) was very heavy as a 5-year-old. He was also very goosey about being touched on the rump. So I used that to my advantage and when we started to drop off the top of the mountain, I would quietly reach back and touch the top of his rump. He would immediately tuck under in response and I kept using this as his cue to collect. It worked great on him...that and of course lots of hill-climbing. Eventually, he no longer needed the cue.
Barbara

Ranelle Rubin writes:

Added Note from Ranelle: . . . Please be advised, I am NOT saying I am a trainer. My passion is to take a horse under saddle and make them a confident trail horse. This was just a quick fix to communicate to the horse that the new, gentler bit was nothing to be afraid of and thus avoid.

I had the same issue with Bogus Thunder, and now with my newest Doc son, Ranger. They were both started by western pleasure type trainers with relatively strong bits. IMO, and I do not pretend to be a trainer, is that the horse is afraid to contact the bit because it has a memory of it hurting so they learned to avoid it by dropping their head. We all know the western pleasure way is fine until you get to the start of a ride. Then all the pretty, nice, seat controlled training is left in the dust with the rest of the herd! I, for one need a horse who can easily be controlled with a hack, a bit, or something that is comfortable the rest of the time, but gets you through the start and any other "herd instinct" issue.

Here is what has worked for me. I put a nice Myler Level One bit on both of these horses with side reins (the ones with rubber donuts) and lunged them with the reins loose at first. I did this every day, and each day I would tighten the rein one hole. All the while I am lunging, I am asking them to move into the bit and collect. The first couple days, they were pretty "loose", then as the days went on, and the rein just a bit tighter, they figured out how to balance their bodies and move off their rear. Only then, did I get back on and ask them to collect and be "on the bit"..it worked great.

Best to you,

Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway. ~ John Wayne

Ranelle Rubin Business Consultant

Horse That Won't be caught

Scary asks:

“You get a colt in for training and you find he doesn’t like to be caught. What do you do?”

I’ve been reading and asking questions about this subject for some time now.  I currently own  a mare who doesn’t like to be caught and the methods I have used successfully on others do not work for this one. 

I know adult horses are not the same as the closer to blank slate youngster. However, I have watched short sessions of colts being started by several of the popular clinicians; Buck Brannaman, Joe walter, John Lyons, Brian Nuebert, Giwani Pony Boy, Clinton Anderson. They all seem to have the same basic philosophy about getting the horses attention and getting them "Hooked On", though with some very different techniques in getting the job done. Some of them are working cowboys, some train and compete.

I had seen John Lyons most recently when I brought home a teen aged mare from a dealers lot to use as a lesson horse. She wouldn’t be caught. I had had horses that needed to walk a short distance away from me when I came with their halters to catch them, but I had never seen anything like this mare. I created a round pen of sorts around her in the pasture where she wouldn’t be caught and I drove her away from me until I saw some licking and chewing (the signs that she is asking what she needs to do to stop being driven, like JL had directed)I backed off and turned my back on her to draw her toward me (advance / retreat—It worked). When she stopped I let her breath a brief moment and I turned and advanced towards her. When she turned her head away I drove again. I would move in and change her direction on my whim (I was told I gain respect by controlling her feet and her direction) We went on like this till she let me touch her and rub her, and then finally I would halter her and end the session. I repeated this maybe three days in a row, making the right answer (being caught) easy, and the wrong thing (turning away from my approach) difficult. After that three days. I never had to repeat the exercise with this mare. I owned her for 4 years.

The next Horse I couldn’t catch was not as easy. I used the same methods and she wore me out time and time again, We always ended with her allowing to be haltered without turning away. But it never transferred to how she behaved out side the round pen. I have resorted to cornering and bribery with her. She is not my horse now but resides with me as a boarder. I do not ride her. When I want to catch her it is to treat a boo boo, take her temperature, shoot wormer into her mouth (cornering and bribery works really fast) or to blanket her which she doesn’t mind so bribery works almost instantly. Taking the blanket off she likes so, no need for catching at all. Once when she managed to get on the wrong side of a fence from her breakfast bowl she shoved her head toward her halter before I had time enough to lift it up to her, she knew I would take her to that bucket of feed.

I have been trying to learn from the popular trainers a catching method that will always work. I haven’t figured out if there just isn’t one of if I am just not “in tune with my horse”  enough to make it work. I worry that I have no sense of timing, that am never going to be able to speak the language of Equus. But, maybe there are as many methods of catching horses as there are equine personalities.

When you spend time auditing “Natural Horsemanship” clinics you will hear lots of simple sounding and yet inexplicably profound statements. “Learn to speak the language of the horse”. “ Take time to understand why the horse does what she does”. “ Let the horse teach you how to become a horseman”. “Pay attention to what happened just before what happened happened”. “Control the horses feet  and you control the his mind” I am always awed at the choreographed dance that takes place in the round pen. I am encouraged by the speed at which a horse begins to comply with the handlers every wish. I become energized when I hear that I too can perform these exercises with success and enjoy the equine / human relationship I long for. After an hour in a round pen with this excercise My horse will come to me when I approach for evermore. After all, these trainers can repeat the same process over and over with horse after horse and it always works. 

I come home to Lucy now who is less and less likely to be caught as the winter wears on, and fail miserably. I feel sure that I am far to blind to her language to gain her obedience or her respect. I am not clever enough to outwit nor manipulate her behavior. But maybe that's not it. Maybe I need to spend more time at it. Maybe I have to be in less of a hurry. Maybe I need to think more about me and Lucy and less about Joe trainer and some other horse.

Pony boy says I need to Study the ways of the horse. Learn her patterns, her preferences, her playfulness, and her needs. Live with her. Know her.

This is where so many of us are at a disadvantage. We don’t have hours of every day to devote to becoming a student of the horse. Yet we desire and even expect our brief allotment of time each week to groom and ride to be happy, successful, satisfying for both partys. It often doesn’t take long for something to go slightly less than perfect. We who work 45 -55 hours a week in big box somewhere oh so far away from the farm need a quick fix. We run off to another clinic, another trainer. It gets confusing. we forget the hours the months the years spent behind the trainer who makes it all look so easy. Lets see if the next trainer has a new idea that might work, we say.

Jessica Jahiel from Horse-sence.org reminds us that every horse is different. She says treats are not a bad idea and that making a horses work pleasant will increase your chances of him wanting to be caught. Always check carefully the fit of your horses tack. Be sure there is nothing painful about a work session. She also recommends the approach retreat method.

Cherry Hill advocates what she claims is the oldest time tested method of “walking down” the horse. You would start in a small space like a stall and approach when the horse stops moving away and allows contact, just scratch the horse on the wither and move away.  Continue until the horse no longer leaves when you approach. Once it is working well try it in a larger space. The horse learns that you are not always going to make her work when you approach and will not feel the need to leave. Cherry remind us never to show aggravation towards the horse once caught by tugging on the halter or using harsh words. These things will teach a horse to stay away from you.

Julie Goodnight likes the “walking off” approach. She says wear comfortable walking shoes and be very matter of fact, and go right out into the pasture for this training exercise. Don’t chase, don’t corner, don’t use bribery, she says. Julie also uses the advance but retreat when the horse stops method. Turn your back on the horse drawing it in. Advance again; continue until you can halter the horse. The sessions will get shorter. There are nuances like looking at the horse as you initially advance but averting your eye as you approach after turning the horse in toward you.

So, basically it is always the same elements involved. Then why do I fail?         

I started thinking about another question during my contemplations: Why would a horse want to be caught? To be taken in out of the weather? To be taken to food? To be removed from the threat of a tyrannical pasture queen? Because she's worried that you'll chase her around for an hour if she doesn't? Yes to all of the above in my experience.

Lucy wants to be caught when she knows we are going to follow her buddy somewhere. She doesn’t mind getting caught if she thinks we might be just taking a walk to a grazing spot. But there is no grazing to be had from December to April and therefore nothing that Lucy wants outside of her fence these days—she will be driven for an hour each time. She will turn and follow me when I retreat and then as soon as I move the halter toward her she is gone in a flash. Maybe motivation is everything. Maybe it has less to do with obedience.

Lately on Sunday afternoons, I am using Lucys' desire to be near me and a little bit of the advance retreat with out real pursuing. It is working so much better without the active driving part. Here is how it goes:

I will be working or doing anything not focused on her and she is sniffing me nuzzling and looking for me to rub her or blow raspberries on her nose (she just loves that). I will have the rope and halter over my shoulder. I will take it and touch her with it and then leave. I am relaxed. I am not in a hurry. (I should pay attention to that—maybe learn to be more relaxed every time I want to catch her) We will “play” some more and I will touch her with the halter or rope again, toss it over her back, rub it on her chest. Dangle the rope around her legs. This interests her. I will move away back to my “work” and she will come for more play. I will sneak the rope around her neck. She is caught. I will slip the halter over her head and snap it on. She will shake her head as if releasing tension—still it bothers her. I will leave again.  I will leave her halter on for an hour. I will come back and take it off and pet her, groom her.

I think Lucy needs consistency. I now really believe that is the key. If getting haltered and getting ridden were as common to her as getting her blanket put on and taken off she would accept those things as easily too. That’s what I am planning. I’ll keep you posted.

“Allow the horse to show you who you are”. “Horses never lie” Learn how to be honest with yourself about your intensions. See yourself through your horses’ reaction to your presence. Be courageous enough to fail and try again.

Should a horse on Pergolide share water tub?

Willie takes liquid Pergolide for Cushings every morning just before breakfast. And he is a big fan of washing his mouth out in the water tub after breakfast, or really any time he gets a drink. I have noticed the tiniest sheen on the water at times and am wondering if it could be the Pergolide. If it is the next question is: Is this potentially harmful for any non cushings horse who shares the water. I'm going to ask a couple of Veterinarians and find out.

Physical or behavioral?

AD has a new Fjord pony who has done very little over the last 4-6 years. Her handler and landlord says and I quote: "She's GREEN. She's had little training for driving and less for riding!" Here is the question: When Nordri goes to trot she always does this weird hop with her front legs. Her shoulders and head come up and the front legs look from the ground as if she were about to take a canter stride and then in mid air switches to trot. Once she is trotting there is no sign of lameness or coordination issues. She does have some scar tissue in the muscle that seems to be still tender to prodding in her ham string just above the arch in her tail swing in this photo. Could this be physical?

I'm posting this question prior to research for your contemplation. Comments are welcome. The research will involve Veterinary examination of Nordri. Stay tuned for details.

Separation Anxiety

Jolynna asks:

“Separation anxiety question: I have two horses who have hissy fits when separated. Between the neighing and calling back and forth, the head tossing of the one being ridden, and the frantic galloping and bucking of the one left behind, riding isn't fun. Any suggestions?”

We know that patterns of behavior become ingrained over time. Responses to anxiety can become learned behavior. Each time an anxiety producing situation arises and a response to it is repeated, the likelihood increases that the unwanted behavior will become habit. Therefore the ideal solution is prevention. Starting our young horses out with a less traumatic weaning, teaching them that humans can be trusted and respected as leaders, and systematically training them to spend time on their own with a trusted human leader. When this is done correctly, through consistent handling it reduces the risk of having to face the potentially dangerous situation that arises when a horse suffers separation anxiety. Unfortunately many horses don’t get an ideal start.

There are no garentees of course. A sensitive talented trainer can get it all done correctly and a youngster is well adjusted, and trusting. But that youngster can still suffer greatly when she finds herself moved suddenly to a new farm with new horses to fit in with and new people to get to know, as my new 5 year old mare did for several weeks upon arrival. This horse with excellent beginnings though, has a greater likelihood of sucessfully adjusting to the new surroundings. As was the case with My Lucy. I expect that her early life experience makes my work introducing her to trail and other unusual surroundings easier.

But even those horses that have been overwhelmed with anxiety during repeated separation, can with some systematic behavioral conditioning, learn that getting anxious is an unnecessary and uncomfortable waste of energy.

Two quick side trips before getting into the behavioral training:

1) It has been proven that punishment for responses to anxiety does not improve unwanted behavior. Rather it tends to increase the level of anxiety and can create a more dangerous situation. Thankfully I have not come across anyone who doesn't understand this to be true.

2) There are several supplements available that claim to ease anxiety. I have not found anyone yet who has found one that works. I’ll keep asking. But there is Pheromone Mist. This is the first I've heard of this. So I have no comment yet.

There is the behavioral science approach to training horses that has been shown to dramatically reduce anxiety to seperation from heard mates. It can be carried out in a variety of creative steps that all follow the same basic methodology. This is the premise behind the work I do with my mare. It specifically addresses reducing her separation anxiety which admittedly is minimal. A quick word of caution to anyone who may be dealing with a more severe case: at any time you feel you are in over your head, you probably sre. Seek help. There are many good trainers out there these days. Here are some excerpts and links to three desciptions of behavioral training.

John Lyons excerpt:

". . .It’s sometimes tempting to rationalize that since a horse’s nature tells him security is to be found in a herd situation, we can excuse his behavior and bring him back to his buddy for reassurance. There may be times when that’s the safest thing to do in the short run. But if you have a horse who shows signs of being buddy sour, you have some training to do. . . "" . . . Horses don’t like to be upset any more than people do. Imagine that terrible feeling when your stomach does flips, like when you think you almost nodded off at the wheel or you said something really stupid. Now imagine that your brain said, “Never mind. False alarm.” Your stomach would have sarcastically said, “Thanks a lot.” Imagine that happens time and time again. After about the fifth time, when your brain sends the get-upset signal, your stomach will say,” Why bother?” And it doesn’t react.

That’s what you’re going to do with this lesson. You’ll separate the horses just enough to get them to worry, and then bring them back together quickly enough that worrying was a waste. That emotional roller coaster is hard to take, so the horses will learn to remain calm—to wait and see if separating is worth getting upset about. In the meanwhile, of course, your cues will put them under momentary pressure and then release them from that pressure. That cue and release will be a distraction from the emotional upset, and will actually work in your favor."

The full article

Rhett Russell excerpt:

"Since you know that your horse is a herd animal it's only reasonable that he would be concerned when he's out of site of the herd. This tells you how your horse thinks about you in the herd thought too! If he were trusting and secure with you as the herd leader, then he would look to you for support. He doesn't feel that way so he's looking to the horse he left behind for that support. Separation anxiety is not something you are going to "fix" in a day. But you can make big progress over a short time frame if you attack the problem in a way that the horse understands.

I would practice taking the horse in and out of the pasture so that he can see that he's coming back and nothing bad happened while he was gone. Do this in small increments. Start by just going out the gate, standing for a few minutes, rewarding the horse and then take him back. Progress to going out of site, standing for a few minutes, rewarding, and then going back. Work up to going off the property for a short period of time. It takes a long time to do this but you may have to work up to a point where the horse is not sweating head to toe from nervous energy."

The full article

Monica Erman excerpt:

"Most of the time the horse left behind is the one that throws the bigger fit. But sometimes the one we are leading gets dangerously out of control. We can build a lesson plan to help both of these horses. We’ll talk about the horse left in the pasture first, then explain some ways to quickly regain control of the horse we are leading away.


For the horse left at home. . .

Many a horse has driven himself into an anxiety fit when his buddy is taken away. Horses are herd animals and a huge part of their mental and psychological health comes from being with other equines. While horses can learn to live by themselves, thanks to their wonderful adaptability, asking them to be comfortable with solitude right from the beginning can be risky to their health and our facilities!

The key is repetition. When we take our horse’s buddy away from him, he is going to get excited. Most of the time we only take the buddy away once and the horse gets upset and may stay upset for the duration of the buddy’s absence. We need to give our horse the time and opportunity to get comfortable with seeing his buddy leave. By practicing leaving with the buddy, the horse in the pasture can get accustomed to the fact that his buddy is going to leave, but he will come back.

The full article

If you want to know more about anxiety and fear here is a good book: Understanding Nervousness in Horse & Rider by Moyra Williams.

Feather Dandruff

Stacy asks:

"My draft horse has for lack of better words "feather dandruff". My vet shaved part of her leg and did a culture nothing turned up. It's itchy and I have been treating with tea tree solution this does seem to give her some relief but the dandruff continues and if I stop treatment for awhile she will be right back to scratching her rear legs on the fencing. It's only on her back legs and her skin is not red or irritated looking. Frankly it looks just like dandruff - dry flaky skin."

Stacy has also explored the possibility of a mite infestation to a dead end. She mentioned in a subsequent e-mail that she suspected the hind feathers were getting urine stained. I came across an article in my research where a woman described similar condition on a mares hind legs: a crustiness of the skin and itching along with residual urine / discharge on the skin. It was discovered that the mare had a urinary tract infection.  For normal dandruff some folks use human dandruff shampoo. I'll keep checking on this one.

I Have 2 Questions!

I received two questions on Friday afternoon / evening. I have been researching and pondering, and will post answers this very night. Thanks so much.

This is how it will work: Question comes in--via comments to Reference Librarian. To Submit questions Click the Deposite Questions Here link under the title "Your question of the Week" in the sidebar. Question gets 3 days of research (I have not decided if I will post questions in advance--though I just posted my first two. Questions will be either added as comments or become part of the answer post. I'll figure that out as I go. This is fun.

Please read the post title "Reference Librarian" for more details.

Reference Librarian?

Well, OK maybe not quite.

But,  I would like to become more of a resource of Equine information. I have very few readers that I am aware of and only a fraction of those ever leave comments or ask questions. This leaves me on my own to think up things to say. Too bad I wasn't more interested in talking / writing about Software testing and computer programs that run Hematology and Blood chemistry analyzers--since that is how I spend 45 hours of every week. But , alas, I get more of that than I could ever want! So, in trying to think of ways (that I would like) to become more interesting I came up with an idea. I will put a question deposit box in the side bar where I will collect questions on anything Equine. I promise to research each question for 3 days and include in the answer at least three references other than my personal experiences--which are limited after all. However, I do have at my disposal a vast library of information and many professionals with whom I have the necessary rapport to glean needed expert commentaries. They include Veterinarians, ferriers, trainers in several disciplines, breeders, back yard hobbyists, farmers, and competitors of all ages who have achieved success. Too bad there wasn't pay for this sort of thing, I'd be all set. But I did put a tip jar up for the barn fund--help me have to figure out how to create a gauge to show how close we are getting.

This is how it will work:

1) Question comes in. (To Submit questions just comment to this post. If you are shy and do not wish to have your questions posted send your comment through my e-mail link. You will receive notice that I have your question. You may also be asked to clarify a detail for me during my research. This will be done through e-mail.

2) Question gets 3 days of research (I have not decided if I will post questions in advance--though I just posted my first two. Original questions will be either added as comments (unless requested otherwise by questioner) or become part of the answer post. I'll figure that out as I go.

3) Answer is posted at the end of the third day.

Note: If you are here just to browse the articles Please click on the "answers to Your Questions" link at the bottom of this post. and thanks for stopping by.